Fair Tax Nation

Replace All Federal Taxes on Income with the Fair Tax Act , HR 25

Let me say again, I feel many people are NOT FOCUSING on what
is truly necessary to get the FairTax Bill passed in this Congress.

From 2000-2006 Congress and the White House were ruled by Republicans.
Even though Rep Linder was on the House Ways & Means Committee, at no
time did the Republican leadership bring the FairTax up even for a W&M
debate, let alone a vote.

Yet, people on this forum are fixated on what I feel are useless discussions
about whether certain right-wing, neo-conservatives do, or do not, promote
the FairTax enough. These people did nothing to get the FairTax passed when
the Republicans ruled everything, why do you think they matter when they now
have no effective power at all?

This ideological fixation on Republican/conservative groups and people is
one major reason the people in power now, i.e. Democrats, see the FairTax as
some right-wing driven neo-conservative scheme, and they don't begin to assess
the FairTax on its merits because of its perceived base of support. And to tell
the truth, if one just objectively listens and reviews the discussion on this forum
they would have every right and reason to think that way.

Until people on this forum, and other FairTax supporters, get it in their heads
that they must talk to the Democrats, and their supporters, and in a nice way, the
FairTax will not go anywhere, and certainly not anywhere fast, no matter how
good it is based on its merits.

Until people on this forum start to talk about reaching out to progressive and liberal
political and social groups, and building mindshare with them, so they WILL LOBBY
on the FairTax's behalf, this group's efforts will continue to be offpoint and futile.

Again, the political reality is the DEMOCRATS are in charge, and nothing will be
advanced unless a majority of them want it. And ignoring or alienating them, and their
constituent groups, is not the way to advance the FairTax. And being seen to coddle up
to people like Rush Limbaugh, et al, will be sure to tar the FairTax as guilty by association.

It is really sad and continuously frustrating that people on this forum continue to tie and
associate the FairTax in a very partisan way to Republican/conservative causes and people,
to the detriment of the FairTax. Because, as a avid supporter of the FairTax, but who is
a VERY PROGRESSIVE political Independent, I get so tired of hearing about all the forays
toward these groups and people that not only don't matter, but who are balls-and-chains
around the FairTax, in the eyes of people like me.

It is to the ultimate advantage of the FairTax that it not be associated with Huckabee,
Hannity, Bortz, and even Linder, who are seen as rabid right-wing Republican partisans
by most Democrats, who do the FairTax no good by continually attacking President Obama too.

Until this effort is actually seen to be non-partisan, by the people in power, we will continue
to get the cold shoulder from people who would probably support it if they could get past
its perceived Republican/conservative ideological affiliation.

So throw all the Tea Parties you want. But if supporters like me don't show up, or Democratic
members or their staff, maybe that should tell you you are doing more damage than good to the FairTax, even though it may make you feel better (and comfortable) to be at these events.

I REALLY WANT TO SEE THE FAIRTAX PASSED THIS YEAR, AND ONLY THE
DEMOCRATS HAVE THE POWER TO DO THAT, SO IF WE DON'T TALK AND
FOCUS ON THEM, WHAT IS THE POINT TO ALL THIS ACTIVITY ON THIS FORUM.

Jabari Zakiya

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Replies are closed for this discussion.

Replies to This Discussion

In the previous post I don't want my comment about AFFT Houston to be misunderstoond. There would be no grassroots without them. Mr. Limbeck, Jr., Mr. Schutte and Mr. Hoagland, et al you are appreciated. But without the grassroots AFFT Houston would get nowhere either. There is too much resistance at the top in all parties. People don't like their power or money tampered with. That is what politics is all about. They don't have America's best interest at heart. (I'm stereotyping there.) They don't represent us and our interests. They only tolerate us for our vote. In reality we shouldn't be opposing the stimulous package and the pork. We should be saying bring it on. Continuing with the analogy in the previous post about the flies and plague. Just as maggots need rotten meat to thrive and reproduce. We will not become that plague of flies we have to become until we (all) are fed up with the system. We need them to make us mad we are too complacent.
Some Democratic leaders such as Mike Gravel get it, but he doesn't have to fear the Democratic Leadership in the House and Senate. Dan Boren last year ignored the leadership and became a co-sponsor. Hopefully he will do so again this year. I think all of us considered him a sort of hero in the Democratic party and that would extend to all Democrats that embraced the FairTax, even if they didn't agree on other issues.

The FairTax is not a political issue, it is an American issue, but unfortunately, there are too many members of both parties that want to retain personal control and don't mind playing political football to get it. That can only change by grass roots support putting pressure on them.

The bill started out with Linder (R) and Peterson (D) and the original plan was no Republican could sign on without bringing a Democrat. IMHO that is a pretty non-partisan approach. However, lots of Republicans were standing in line and few Democrats, because much of the original grass roots support was from that side of the aisle and eventually (2004), Democratic leadership decided to run negative campaigns against the Republicans supporting the FairTax. As I said, Dan Boren supported it in spite of that pressure by Leadership...and that was largely due to local grassroots efforts.

Most party members follow their leadership and that includes at the local level. We shouldn't be surprised to see mostly conservative supporters at the grass roots when it is mostly conservative supporters in Congress that speak up in favor of the FairTax. Instead of having their own positions, too many of the "party faithful" in both parties simply repeat the Leadership's party line on issues. But that is backwards. At the grass roots, Americans shouldn't be waiting for their Representatives to tell them what is best. We should be educating ourselves on the issues and demanding our Representatives listen.

The FairTax is one issue that should simply be American and as a natural course, it will have a tremendous affect on many of the other issues that divide us. Instead of being frustrated at seeing so much conservative support, we should simply be working hard to increase grass roots understanding and support from the liberal side. While i understand the distrust by party activists, most of us live side by side with members of the other party (whichever side we are on) and consider them friends, and in many cases family. Why should the issue be one of distrust? Should we ask all Republican co-sponsors to come off the bill so that a Democrat can introduce it? Would that ensure anything?

I for one just want the policital games to end. The FairTax is American. I have spoken to many Democratic groups and generally, the reception is good; but so long as their Leadership is against it, most of their activists are not going to take a position. This is true with Unions, Associations or any other group. If the Leadership is against it, most officers in that organization are not going to go against the leadership...at least publically. That doesn't mean the average American democratic citizen won't though and we have a long way to go in educating them.

So at grass roots level, we should all seek out members of both parties, join hands with them in local efforts for the FairTax and invite them to join us here. As the democratic grass roots numbers grow, we'll see some of their Representatives come on board and hopefully as Jim says, they will occupy space beside Huckabee, King, Linder, etc.

I don't think the answer is to remove any conservative supporters from view, but to build support at the grass roots and upwards on the other side. They will then be equally visible.
Bill,

You did a much better job of saying what I intended to say.

Thanks,

Jim
I have a hard time understanding the mentality The Fair Tax either will have difficulty passing or or won't pass because some members of Congress are opposed. Maybe I'm missing something but the last time I checked there were only 535 people in Congress but more than 300 million who aren't members in Congress. We surround and control them. This maybe at least part of what Glenn Beck will discuss on his We surround them show on Friday.
Thanks Jim,

Let me add, I appreciate Jabari's position. It is common when presenting to any group fo them to ask what the leaders of their parties or their own Representatives/Senators think of the bill. One thing I do when doing a presentation to Democrats to help overcome that guilt by association is focus on who isn't supporting it in the Republican party.

For example, I might say, "it can't be too bad because neither the Republican House leader nor the Republican Senate leader support it; No Republican on the House Ways and Means Committee support it and many of your favorite Republicans such as Armey, Romney and Forbes hate it."

The bottom line is this is not a Republican/Democrat battle but one of control and power. I go in prepared to answer questions on Social Security, the poor, the rich, etc.

The benefits of the FairTax start with personal freedom and visibility. That is general enough for grass roots Republicans. Democratic concerns go further. That doesn't make either of them right or wrong, but you just need to be prepared, willing to be patient and educate.

When I was holding monthly meetings a few years ago, one Democratic state delegate, came to three straight monthly meetings to make sure he got all his questions answered. After the third, he told me he supported it and was going to help me educate other members at various get togethers. That never happened and in a private conversation, I learned that direction came from state party leadership. Party members who want to advance politically have to follow leadership to a great extent unless there is significant local grass roots support that serves to excuse them. We need to stay focused on growing that support.
Bill,
That is very practical advice on how to answer a question from the left re: their leadership's opinion of the FairTax. What I usually do is start by explaining the problems in the tax code, then I talk about the solution of the FairTax before I even mention that the bill is before congress.
Other practical suggestions:
Democrats care about the environment, so explain that making used goods not taxable encourages recycling.
Democrats want to lift the plight of the poor, so explain the FairTax is the only proposal on the table that completely untaxes anyone living in poverty.
Democrats believe the tax burden falls more heavily on the working poor than it should, so make sure they know the FairTax does away with payroll taxes that are nearly the most regressive tax in any country inthe world.
Democrats care about the homeless, so describe five homeless people in a FairTax world pooling their prebates to have nearly enough to at least put a roof over their own heads and rice and beans in there bellies.
Democrats want transparency in government, so challenge them to demand transparency in the tax code as well.
I guess I'll add my 2 cents. What Jabari says is correct, I think. The FairTax can't pass without support from both major parties. He is also correct in saying that the FairTax is generally considered a conservative Republican idea. How that came about doesn't really matter. I think he is wrong about the original bill in 1999. I think it was introduced by a Republican and a Democrat. I could be wrong about this.

I don't think the FairTax is a liberal/conservative issue as much as it is a control issue. Generally, if one is in favor of using the power to tax as a way to control behavior, the current tax system is much more desireable. For example, the tax laws in Singapore (so the story goes) are such that it is impossible NOT to violate them (especially if one operates a business). That gives the oligarchy great power in that they can use selective prosecutions as a way to punish and persuade. (Hmm, this is starting to sound familiar.)

The bottom line is that the FairTax will generally be opposed by those who want to control -- whether for altuistic purposes or otherwise. Objectively looking at the two major parties, it's pretty apparent that, at least economically, the Democrats want more control than the Republicans.

It's going to be a difficult battle.
I just deleted a couple comments that were not what this site is intended to be used to promote.

I think we have spent enough time on this. If FTN is not the place for a few of you, all I can say is I'm sorry about that but this particular conversation is toast.

Hank, You need to take that FairTax bashing back over to John Hanson's site. I've already told you that is not what FairTax Nation is about. We will not be wasting time with that mess here.

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